@user109 wrote:
An end-to-end process is a process that consists of all sub-processes that follow each other in a timely and logical manner and are necessary to fulfill a specific customer need.
<Irony style=“off-topic”> Your answer can’t be correct because I’ve read several times in this forum that customers don’t care whether they have IPv6 or not. And therefore have no need for it…</irony>
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Goodnight!
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End-to-end can mean very different things depending on the context:
In a communication system such as telephony, this means the entire distance from the mouth of participant A (or the microphone on side A) to the ear of participant B (or the loudspeaker).
In freight forwarding, end-to-end can mean, for example, the delivery of a freight item from the sender to the recipient, including all framework conditions and accompanying processes.
For a product, the end-to-end process can mean the entire life cycle from the raw material for the product at the beginning of the chain to the recycling of the product where it is broken down back into the raw materials.
I noticed a few days ago (sometime this year anyway) that suddenly everything was a lot slower - and then I noticed that IPV6 was activated even though I never did that myself. I’m guessing because of the migration here, or some update.
IPV6 is already heavily relied upon, so even my less tech-savvy family members have noticed the difference - they just don’t know that it’s due to the incompatibility with the booster.
Downloads, websites - even the Threema app almost stopped sending at all (a lot of fun sending several 10MB photos at 1Mbit/s xD).
Almost everything relies on IPV6, but allows IPV4 if that’s all you can do.
But yes, as soon as that is no longer the case it will probably happen quickly. I hope xD
In fact, you can achieve even more with IPv4 today than with IPv6. The other way around it would be more of an anomaly on the internet 😉
There is therefore no real disadvantage to anyone if they do without IPv6 at the moment. Of course it doesn’t make sense if you look ahead. By the way: Mobile still relies 100% on IPv4.
What is much more important is that the new solution can also use UDP traffic, as some services, especially Google, rely on the protocol instead of TCP.
Thanks @5018. Do I understand correctly that your statement in the last paragraph refers to the previous booster solution as such and not to IPv6? Because UDP was supported by IPv6 from the very first second. I’m excited to see what the future holds; Multipathing in particular (QUIC and other L5+ protocols) in combination with IPv6 multihoming would of course be a really nice and future-oriented thing.
Have you tried turning it off and on again?
I cannot support this statement, on the contrary. Sure, IPv6 is the present and the future, but IPv4-only operation will be possible for many years to come without any problems for the end user.
For example, not all of the devices in my household are capable of IPv6, i.e. a coherent, consistent IPv6 network concept is not possible for me. Therefore, I have decided to avoid IPv6 as much as possible for reasons of simplicity and uniformity in the spirit of a “lowest common denominator”. That means where possible (IB, PC, laptop) I have consciously deactivated IPv6 and I live very well with it.
By the way, this strategy is still used by many large business customers where IPv6 is neither an issue in the WAN (LAN-I/IPSS/IP+/eSIP) nor in the LAN.
- I’m not a computer scientist, so it could very well be that I have a wrong understanding. 😉
- My statement was meant more to say that many devices/SW automatically switch to IPV6 if there is a chance. IPV4 is needed when V6 is not activated or available.
With the booster it certainly also has to do with TCP/UDP etc.
But thank you for the info 🙂
Some experts recommend changing the priority from IPv6 and preferring IPv4, see for example here:
Prefer Windows IPv4 over IPv6 - CICS - ZDV-Wiki (uni-tuebingen.de)
I just go one step further and deactivate IPv6 completely. Since this can have disadvantages, I don’t generally recommend it, because when you tinker with these things, no matter in which direction, you should know exactly what you’re doing.
c’t draws the following conclusion:
“IPv6 is the future - but can currently cause difficulties here and there. Therefore, if there are connection problems to websites or services, it may make sense to (still) deactivate the technology.”
Deactivate IPv6 - this is how it works (heise.de)
Since I like to prevent possible difficulties and a consistent IPv6-only network concept is not (yet) possible, I am (still) foregoing IPv6 entirely as far as possible, except for testing and learning purposes. And with this argument, I find myself in very good company when I look at the business landscape in Switzerland.
I had IPv6 (6RD) active for several years until November 2022. In the Swisscom network. And I haven’t encountered a single problem. So it can be assumed that a 20-year-old technology definitely works.
OK. Problems may well arise. But if “old” or “broken” hardware and software in a future-oriented network disrupts my infrastructure, I will not hesitate to replace this hardware in favor of future-oriented technology. And don’t turn off the modern, future-oriented network protocol.
</Repeat style=“off-topic” boring=true volume=“100%”>I would rather have the peeler to activate…!</Repeat>
Because I like to prevent possible difficulties and a consistent IPv6-only network concept is not (yet) possible
What is not possible? To replace longwave with FM with DAB with Internet radio and switch off the old Beromünster station? And in the meantime, replacing analogue with digital technology? IPv6 is designed to work alongside v4. So you want to replace all v4 devices with v6 replacements in one fell swoop? IPv6 is designed to run alongside IPv4. I see no reason that a V6-only network should be built today.
I (still) forego IPv6 as much as possible, except for tests and learning purposes. And with this argument, I find myself in very good company when I look at the business landscape in Switzerland.
Well. Business customers are also the only ones who can and want to pay CHF 20 per month for 4 bytes (the static IPv4). That’s CHF 5.- per byte. In the 80s I could have bought a 20MB hard disk for my VC20 for 3000. (0.015 centimes per byte) You can calculate for yourself what a [30TB SSD](https://www.digitec.ch/de/s1/product/intel-ssd-d5-p5316-307tb-25inch-30720-gb -25-ssd-20675618) is paid per byte….
I think that with IPv6 in the business world we are moving back from a cloud-oriented, centralized world back to decentralized systems. The pendulum has been swinging back and forth between centralized and decentralized for a long time:
If you don’t understand what I mean yet, you might understand it after listening to this podcast. (Sorry two nerds for nerds.) But I am convinced that IPv6 is the “right” way. Already today. Activate and not deactivate.
Äs Greetings
Android
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Thank you very much for your point of view, which I can leave line by line without contradiction. The topic of IPv4 vs. IPv6 is extremely complex and not black and white, not even for me.
For my part, I change a technology first or rather. only if the old existing technology is switched off or if the new technology brings a clear, immediate, measurable, practical advantage for my purposes. Seen this way, you are probably right that I will only switch over when IPv4 is EoL. Depending on the experts you contact, this should be sometime between 2030 and 2040.
But I’m not a stickler for facts or advice, so my specific question to you is:
What clear, immediate, measurable, practical, concrete benefit would I personally and my family have if I were to activate the v6 stack today, January 14, 2023, on IB3 and the very few devices in my network that even support IPv6?
Good morning community
@inane: Glad we haven’t lost you in the debate yet.
Nevertheless, there are good reasons why one can even advise deactivating IPV6 - for me, for example, with the weak line and 80% of the data via booster…
For me, the “Booster” concept has always been the auxiliary bridge for special cases. It may well be that a network with two routers, one of which does not support v6, will cause problems and v6 will have to be turned off. In the podcast quoted above, a major advantage of v6 networks (locally at your home) is discussed at one point. Topics such as automatic configurability, load distribution, etc. are already conceptually described/included in the v6 standard.
Thank you very much for your point of view, which I can leave as it is line by line without contradiction.
@hed: Thanks for the feedback! 💐 I actually wasn’t sure whether the epic-length word-to-word network would reflect my vision in a reader-friendly way.
The topic of IPv4 vs. IPv6 is extremely complex and not black and white, not even for me.
That just doesn’t work if you switch off the v6 stack in such a “black and white” way. That’s exactly where my (our?) taunts are aimed.
Seen this way, you are probably right that I will only switch over when IPv4 is EoL.
Then you may have actually not sufficiently appreciated my advice regarding radio frequencies. Since 1981, the IP protocol has provided that different packet versions can float around in the networks and coexist.
What clear, immediate, measurable, practical, concrete benefit would I personally and my family have if I were to activate the v6 stack today, January 14, 2023, on the IB3 and the very few devices in my network that even support IPv6?
The fact that you can assign a v6 address to every light bulb, every grain of sand on this earth. I can send packets from a (mobile) device to the light bulb from anywhere in the world - without a network (NAT) and a false bottom (CGNAT).
But I also think that the v6-based applications that will disruptively storm the internet have not yet been invented. At least I don’t know her. But if we refuse to take this step, the application will not be invented.
And this may also require a fair amount of innovation in the routers to effectively “hole-hole” the v6 firewall. Or to configure the network “behind” the router into sensible subnets. Yes, it won’t be easy and I think it still has to happen…
But I’m not a stickler for facts or advice
I can’t judge that conclusively. But your “digital” attitude of only activating v6 at the end of v4’s life suggests that. I think that it will also benefit the much-celebrated 99.9% of users if they are made aware that v6 is more powerful, more useful and more useful than v4 and not just a 1:1 replacement.
I didn’t find any numbers in my research. But we have already reached the time where there are servers that can only be reached with IPv6. And there are more and more. But Ripe has a nice collection of knowledge about growth in Specific and IPv6 in general.
Regarding the topic of self-reflection, we should keep personal taunts, animosities and attacks away from the public forum, thank you very much!
The boundaries and feelings are certainly fluid. In a world of alternative facts, stolen elections and military special operations, I feel compelled to celebrate the analog assessment of facts and not the digital one. That was probably a philosophical leap into the offside. Everyone can now interpret this idea analogously for themselves.
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Äs Greetings
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The point about the taunts wasn’t related to your answer, but to another post that has since been deleted.
I don’t doubt for a second that IPv6 is a blessing for the world and people as a whole. But the question of what it brings me personally in my modest, minimalist network (partly still Fast Ethernet) concretely and directly, today and now, has not yet really been answered.
And yes, I have three FM radios in my household, between 20 and 50 years old. They do their job excellently. They are replaced when FM is switched off. However, I have had DAB+ in my car for 6 years because it brings added value for me.
I would try to host my data myself. Reactivate the web server again. Buy a domain for me. Introduce subdomains for my storage temperature monitoring. Maybe set up your own mail server. Or start with an OpenSense firewall. Backup to a location outside my four walls would then work sooner or later with glass. There are already a few nerdy crafts waiting for me. Of course, this only works if a static prefix is delivered promptly. Switching to Init7 would make the 70.- inOne advantage disappear, so I could also have the Fiber7 connected in parallel to the Swisscom Anschluss. But that would again require several modems. A half-baked thing, but definitely worth giving a thought. There are already a few interesting projects that would actually be easily possible with IPv6 if the provider played along… 🤓
-Andiroid
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I didn’t ask what kind of “gimmicks” are possible with IPv6 and what IPv6 brings for you, others, the provider or the world, but rather what measurable, concrete, immediately noticeable advantages for me personally IPv6 has now and today My technically very modest household would benefit if I were to tick the v6 box on the PC and the IB today?
I have asked this question over the last 20 years with countless top experts (first in 2002 with Ms. Silvia Hagen, author of several specialist books and founder of the IPv6 Forum), professors from various universities and top ICT experts from leading manufacturers of network equipment (including Cisco and HP) discussed. The answers were always more or less identical and have long been known to me: address scarcity, security, elimination of NAT/multiple NAT, integrated QoS, more efficient routing, advantages with VPN and direct E2E connections, elimination of the DHCP server thanks to SLAAC, easier implementation global transparent addressing concepts, and, and, and.
Everything is good, right, correct and, on the whole, absolutely necessary. long overdue. But it doesn’t even begin to answer my question above.
@hed wrote:
I didn’t ask what kind of “gimmicks” are possible with IPv6 and what IPv6 brings for you, others, the provider or the world, but rather what measurable, concrete, immediately noticeable advantages for me personally of IPv6 now and today in my technically very modest household if I were to tick the v6 box on the PC and the IB today?
You would have access to my v6-only website! 🌍🤩👍
Everything is good, right, correct and, on the whole, absolutely necessary. long overdue. But it doesn’t even begin to answer my question above.
I’m afraid we’re getting lost here. I am not the Messiah here who will convert you… 👋
